Maybe it's time to raise the bar and do some overhaul here. Restrict access on this site to "Dedicated Club Members" only. Those who don't acitively participate like doing a combination of Post/Start a thread/Login/Review on a number of basis will be kicked out or will have limited access to the site.

Those who wants to part be of the "D.C.M" has to EARN it by fullfilling the criteria mentioned above. It is up to the discretion of the administrator to grant him full access on the site once he earns it.

New visitors need not to register as members but will have no access to "our" pictures until they become "junior members" then start earning their way up.

I think the door is wide open and needs to be shut.

Dedicated members are very well our "Hall of Fame" members and "junior members" are people who regularly post but does not share any photos nor display his collection and does not login a number of times a week/day

Cal Fong (o-xide - 11/24/2004 10:50:27 AM)
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Dann, I am really ticked off of them asking you to remove the pictures. I think you need to impliment this new policy ASAP. You run the site and is the rightful owner. You can do whatever the hell you want and no one can stop you.

Cal Fong (o-xide - 11/24/2004 10:57:14 AM)
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I was thinking something like that. Certainly members who are active participants should receive some sort of benefit. I already had some restrictions for non-members, like the Artwork and Download sections, but those are gone now.

Yesterday I was bummed on one level, due to the Romeo II thing, which is understandable, but I had hoped that this would be a cool place to get the latest info and some sneak peaks.

Now today, I got bummed on another level, that I can't even run a functional site. It's great to know that Eye Jackets came in Fingerprint, but without a picture, it's fairly useless.

I'd like to keep the majority of the information for everyone, because if I made it too much of a hassle, then no one will care. Forum and collection etc... of course require membership for storing the info. So let's see how this break down goes:

Non-Members:
Access to Catalogue, Supplements, and Site Features. Access to general gallery only.

Junior Members:
Can create collections, post in most topics on forum, edit their reviews. Access to member galleries and other member areas.

Standard Members:
*up for consideration*
Automatic transfer based on Collection/Login/Review/Post requirments. Maybe 2/10/10/50?

Elite Members:
Transfer by admin only. Most likely based on Hall of Fame and our discretion. Access to VIP forum where info can be posted at will. Will require agreement to not release info. Also will be able to change their user title.

Moderaters/New Posters:
*as needed*
Ability to moderate forum and/or post News. Probably need news posters more, but who knows what we'll be able to post now. "Hatchet's are now on Oakley.com, even though they've been out for four months."

Administrators:
Myself/Phil/Ed/John

Dann Thombs (Dann - 11/24/2004 2:14:52 PM)
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Great idea on the break down but I think non-members/junior members should not have access the catalog so we can continue to use the "forbidden photos". They have to play on our rules and not us playing their's.

Cal Fong (o-xide - 11/24/2004 11:25:05 AM)
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I'd agree, but I want to leave something open or people will turn away. Plus I don't want to belligerently repost all the images I promised I would take down. Being of sound mind, I don't see the issue, but it's their lawyer's call and he has power like it or not.

However, I got permission from the Web team that it would be okay not only to post the images, but even oakley.com artwork. They had some meetings specifically because of issues raised by this site, and the only conclusion was that they couldn't help us with the site, but certainly wouldn't stand in our way. So with that, I don't see a problem with with standard members and up having access to them. Maybe the listing can be text only, sort of as a pseudo-lamb's blood, so those looking for issues will just pass by. As soon as someone with adequate membership browses the pages, then the images show up.

Dann Thombs (Dann - 11/24/2004 2:38:48 PM)
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So there is a way we can get all the images up again?
god im loosing respect for oakley if they cant even let a fan site that praises them, have pictures of the oakley products that WE all buy.
now that theyve made you butcher the site
is it now time to get the new fast site that we all chip in and pay for?

Alexis Watkins (LEX7 - 11/24/2004 7:53:13 PM)
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Yeah, I think you hit it right! Images-restricted, text-unlimited. Passers by...well, true Oakley fans who finds this site will not turn away and will do whatever it takes to have full access! Don't you think? People who post non-sense will be shut down and get booted out.

Once this site is restricted, At least the Standard Members will have access to the images, "these people" on the outside will not have a clue of what is it.

Bottom line is...they must meet your criteria or the door is shut!

Cal Fong (o-xide - 11/24/2004 11:58:02 AM)
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Yeah I lost a little respect, but I really can't blame those at HQ. This request came per a third party agency dedicated to taking care of issue that Oakley itself doesn't have the time to do itself. She only talked to the lawyer, who probably didn't do much research and gave an easy answer to just have us remove images. At face value, yeah, I guess we're just bootlegging official images without permission or concern *sarcasm*, but although this isn't an educational group, I'm sure some fair use policy could be called upon. Especially when the situation and use comes into play. Plus that fact that nothing's for profit.

Dann Thombs (Dann - 11/24/2004 2:59:08 PM)
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All the ideas sound good. I participate on www.frankblack.net and the amount of posts you have raises your level, the way the reviews do here. You must have so many poist I believe to be able to acces the trading and ftp section for shows. It may work well here and give those who sign up and don't participate an excuse to try and do more for the sites growth.

Phil Barket (kingphilbert - 11/24/2004 2:59:58 PM)
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Standard Members:
*up for consideration*
Automatic transfer based on Collection/Login/Review/Post requirments. Maybe 2/10/10/50?

This seems like a reasonable idea. Keep collections requirement low (2 is good) because simply listing a huge collection doesn't automatically translate into contributing to the site (MonsterDog, O-Xide, Lex and the rest of you talk about your massive collections and post info, reviews, pics, and discussion which is the real benefit).
Lower the review count to 5?
How long has it taken people to reach 50 posts?

E C (EastCoast - 11/24/2004 4:43:59 PM)
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Well, I reached 50 posts and 50 reviews in no time. But some don't get there so fast. I think we would really need to agree on amounts for everything that are really fair.

Phil Barket (kingphilbert - 11/24/2004 3:21:31 PM)
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50 post sounds reasonable...like I said, people who post non-sense just to get a level up will be taken down per admin's discretion.

Cal Fong (o-xide - 11/24/2004 12:27:49 PM)
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Oh great... now I'm most likely going to be booted from being able to see ANYTHING. I think being exclusionary is not the way to go. It would give the appearance of this site being elitist and would reduce the benefit of this site even more. Why lock out people who want to learn more?

Some of us don't have huge collections to review. Some of us don't have time in our day/week to log in regularly. Sometimes you just want to see what's going on and this was the best site to find out.

If this plan goes into effect, you may as well just shut the site down entirely.

( - 11/24/2004 8:30:53 PM)
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It's not even a matter of reviewing your collection. If you try something, review it. Boost your numbers. Ad what you have to your collection or participate in the Wishlist. But right now all this talk is speculatory. We understand that everyone can't be here all the time to up their forum post count. That's why we need to agree on what's fair. You have over 50 though. It isn't hard to get there, not when you're really involved in a thread or conversation. We don't want to lock anyone out as if they don't belong.

Phil Barket (kingphilbert - 11/24/2004 3:40:19 PM)
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For the record, I wouldn't create anything that would excluse people trying to get more info. That's why I'd never make the database member only. It would discourage people, and most would walk away. I don't plan on making the Standard Membership too hard to attain. Two collection items, a few reviews, few logins, and enough posts to show some interest. 50 posts doesn't take too long. And all that is kept from junior members is maybe the db pictures. I don't think that's too unreasonable, but I'm certainly interested in everyone's opinion, not just the most active users. I'd hate to get a bad rep as an elitist group, because I don't want to run a site that way.

Dann Thombs (Dann - 11/24/2004 4:00:03 PM)
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Maybe exemptions will be made. Once you have proven yourself as a true fan and not an outsider trying to "KILL JOY" then you are okay. Again, this is up to the admins.

Please don't be offended just because we are trying to come out with a solution. Everything is still up in the air.
Everybody is welcome to suggestions and we all decide if it's fair.

Again, everybody is still welcome to this site. All members should have full access to all threads with text only. Established members will just have an advantage of having pictures with it.

Let me ask you this, would you rather have this site with no pictures at all or have the option but just have to earn it...really, what good is the site without the
JPEGs. It will run, but a picture is always worth a thousand words.

We are not trying to isolate members here, we are just sorting out the "bad fish"

Cal Fong (o-xide - 11/24/2004 1:04:36 PM)
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Very good point. Basically at this point, I did feel like hanging up the site, since it seems fairly useless to me, so I'm not trying to exclude anyone, I'm trying rather to get more online for people.

Dann Thombs (Dann - 11/24/2004 4:11:01 PM)
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Dann, don't hang up the site, c'mon now, deep breaths, look at all the work that's gone in to it, hey, even more so now, when you're stressed, that's when you function best!(you as in 'one')

I reckon, be patient, they've gotta see sense, and we've gotta keep posting, and keep supporting, if we say ah fuck it, then we can't be true fans, right?

If a ball team loses, or the manager gets sacked, or the player gets locked up for doin coke, we still support the team? yes?

I hope this will all blow over and things will be back to how they were yesterday, I mean fuckin yesterday!! Man, one day can do this to all of us? Dude!

The site would be sweet with member access stuff, but yeah, it's gotta be open to the public in some way or other, or how else will it get members? If I'd seen this a couple of months ago and it said members only, I probably wouldn't have joined up, but I'm so glad I did, cos I got to air my veiws and share my stuff with people who don't think I'm wierd, or should 'grow up' etc.

Fair enough, Oakley have got to protect their interests as regards copyright etc, but surely they have to protect their interests as regards spreading the word to people that are interested in their products, but they're also going to want to keep up the 'left of field/ we're out there/ art meets science/ mad scientist taking over the world' image, isn't that part of what attracts us to it in the first place?

Unobtainium. Nope, can't get it anywhere!
Camo boots. Nope, can't find any!

Get it? It's the very elusiveness that keeps us looking! and if this sort of thing is going to try and throw us off the scent, then I'm sure we're all gonna sniff harder!!

I am!

Darren Taylor (rolyatnerrad - 11/24/2004 6:07:31 PM)
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Yeah there is no way we can let the site die,
as i said before it might now be time to start the new Improved faster oakley review.
We were talking about it a few months ago and everyone is cool about chippin in to make sure money isnt a problem,
lets do it!
How cool would it be to have a limitless site that will stay fast no matter what.

Alexis Watkins (LEX7 - 11/25/2004 12:52:29 AM)
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i kinda torn between having an exclusive site, it looks like a good idea for those who are already established here on the forums, but i also agree with Dann that it might discourage newcomers. one of the main reasons why i love this site (which swiftly became my daily routine) were the pictures. i think the idea of earning the privilege to view pictures might be discouraging (even elitist), but on the other hand if the requirements are reasonable, it is a good way of weeding out those with lack of interest. i'm just typing while thinking...
we can all agree that money wouldn't be a problem, i would proudly make a contribution to keep the site running, as visiting it has become a daily routine.
sad sad day...

W.B. Ng (bong - 11/25/2004 1:02:34 AM)
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i just thought of an issue... even if we do make images exclusive to standard members, how would that information be known to a new member? that's basically saying that Oakley's images are still being used on the site in one way or another... which seems like a big no no.

i think a temporary suggestion would be for all members to pool our efforts together and take individual photos of every item/model/color combination/etc... and add those images to the catalog database. it wouldn't be as complete as using Oakley's images, but at least we can use our own. there are already many photos of individual items in the gallery, maybe we can implement those photos into the catalog database. i'll gladly contribute more photos from my collection... even get a better digital camera to take them with.

W.B. Ng (bong - 11/25/2004 1:13:26 AM)
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Yeah, there is always Ebay and the Japanese sites that we can feed off if the pictures from the members are not sufficient enough.

Cal Fong (o-xide - 11/24/2004 10:27:13 PM)
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the Ebay idea is actually not a bad one... people constantly nick pictures from Ebay; i don't know about Ebay's policies of using seller's images, but it does seem to be public domain, unless the Ebay auction is linked to a specific etailer. and since they're not officially Oakley images, we could pretty much use them.

W.B. Ng (bong - 11/25/2004 1:31:09 AM)
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Thinking more about this - I'm on the fence now regarding a tiered system. Had that been in place when I first came across the site, I would have been less likely to jump on board if I knew my posts were being watched by a higher-up group of O-fans. I would assume they knew everything I did anyway so I would have nothing to contribute.

I don't think we should confuse two issues:
1)the removal of official images
2)how membership should be run
since the former is not really the result of the latter.

The former was out of Dann's hands, the latter is not really a related issue. Is there anything wrong with membership the way it currently is? It seems to me that it's run very well - everyone respects the rules, there are lots of contributors, memebership is growing - let's not take aggravation at image removal out on potential members.

E C (EastCoast - 11/25/2004 8:33:17 AM)
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If we do get some feedback from Oakley and they reinstate our right to use the images on the site then the only thing IMHO that could be changed/added would be a limited access area for things just like the romeo II pics which we all want to see but aren't for public consumption yet. If it's restricted to known members then the chances of someone unwanted getting hold of them is pretty low.

adam moore (adamjmoore - 11/25/2004 1:17:17 PM)
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